Dear family,
It has been almost one year since I realized fully that I could no longer believe the tenets of Christianity in just about any form. I searched high and low, studied the Bible diligently, studied the apologetic arguments deeply, and talked to probably hundreds of individuals from family members to professors to pastors to other students at Moody Bible Institute. Many of you may remember my initial notes on Facebook. At that time I was simply trying desperately for any individual who could provide sufficient Christian answers to questions which already had excellent answers outside the faith. The responses I received from Christians pushed me further away from the faith. The occasional hatred, predictability, and clear lack of critical thinking in so many responses convinced me that the Holy Spirit could not be indwelling those who were posting on my notes.
I simply could no longer believe.
In many ways I felt like a person who has discovered how a magic trick is done. No effort on the part of the magician will convince the person that the trick is actually magic. No effort on the part of any Christian can convince me that Christianity is actually real (yet), because I know how it works inside and out. I once witnessed to and lead people to the Lord. I saw answered prayer. I felt the forgiveness of my sins as a child. I was delivered from different sins at different points in my life. I had tasted the Holy Spirit, as Hebrews says. I reject it completely because I know that it is not true. I honestly wished and hoped that it was, but I have never heard of a person who reached my point of knowledgeable rejection of the faith who then turned back. I know how the trick is performed.
I discovered how guilt, condemnation, grace, and mercy affect a person’s demeanor and influence their actions and change their behavior, giving the illusion of the Holy Spirit. When I considered that remaining a Christian would require me not only to apply these “tricks” to other unsuspecting individuals (to make disciples), but also to continue applying them to myself I felt morally obligated to cease being a Christian.
Intellectually, I could not longer believe because the secular explanations explained more of the data than any form of Christianity I explored. I explored every possible explanation of inspiration I could find (finally ending with Barth) and realized that the passages of the Bible make more sense when understood as inventions of men. I not only could no longer explain away the errors in the Bible I had read about either online or in textbooks, but I was discovering error after error myself in the Bible. I had full intentions of becoming an apologist and debating top atheist scholars and realized that no Christian argument I could find – or invent – dealt honestly with the data. The secular explanations made the most sense. If God existed and gave me my brain to use, I was obligated to use it and it was telling me clearly that Christianity is not true just as I had already accepted that Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other sects of religions are not true as well.
I also discovered that despite the fact that I had slowly been ceasing to pray, my life proceeded consistently without any changes. I had not completely ceased praying. I continued to beg God to reveal Himself to me in any way. He did not. And trust me, if your God is who you claim him to be, I would know if He revealed Himself to me. A god who can be “missed” or “misinterpreted” is a weak god indeed.
[Some of you will interpret the previous paragraph as evidence that I was never a Christian in the first place. I would simply challenge you to taste and see that the secular life is good! The apostle Paul says to test yourself to see if you are in the faith. I can think of no better test then to stop praying for a month or two and see how your life changes. If it does not change, then either your god does not exist or you are not a true believer.]
Yes my life did change – primarily by the change in attitude and behavior of Christians toward me when I made my new stance public. Around the middle of last summer, the thing I feared the most was admitting my change. I had seen how Christians can treat apostates and heretics. Early on when I was more of a liberal Christian I had already seen how manipulative and down-right rude Christians were being to me. I was now afraid at how they would treat me if I was an open atheist.
I was also angry. I felt that information was held from me by church leaders and especially apologists so that they could control me all those years. I wanted those years back so I could feel I had not wasted them. I felt tricked and was angry at those who had done the tricking. I wanted to show how the trick was done so that others could have the blinders removed from their eyes as well.
So I tried deconverting others from Christianity. I did not want them to waste so much time and money on a system of thought that was simply not true. In my mind getting out early was better than finding out late. I apologize to those I offended during this time. My intentions were the best, although my actions were probably painful for many. It was painful for me as well.
So many of you probably wonder where things are at now. I am happy, content, and enjoying life. I am regaining some of my old hobbies and finding new ones. I am finding new friends and exploring my new freedom while understanding clearly the Apostle Paul’s admonition that “all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial” (Just because I do not believe the Bible is inspired does not mean I do not believe it is all wrong!) My career is advancing and I am super excited about what life in the 21st century could hold and what tiny part I may play in moving the human race forward. The last several hundred years have seen advancements in comfort and a reduction in violent death like never before in history.
I also have hope. The same type of hope that has filled atheists like Winston Churchill who said to never, never, never give up. (It is ironic how atheism is often equated with men like Hitler and we conveniently forget that one of Hitler’s chief opponents – who lead England through the Battle of Britain – was also an atheist!)
So what is life like without your God? It is fun, exciting, and difficult all at the same time. I no longer have a deity telling me what to do so I have to think more carefully about my decisions. I have made many mistakes but am learning from them. I have an increased sense of responsibility because I can no longer rely on God to bail me out or just “work all things together for good”. As an atheist, I have to carefully and cautiously evaluate my own decisions and my own life to do what is best for me and those around me. It is a new maturing process which is helping me to grow into an adult like I never imagined.
Is my life meaningless? Absolutely not! At first I felt this way. This feeling of depression and hopelessness lasted for several months and then I started to catch glimpses of hope and joy (identical in many ways to the same feelings I had in the faith that I attributed to the Holy Spirit) as my mind and emotions regained equilibrium. Within the church I had been programmed to think my life was meaningless outside the faith, but then I realized that this was a teaching of the church and might not be true. That was when I realized that this was all part of the trick that is Christianity. By convincing people they are hopeless without Christ, one can get them to feel that they only have hope with Christ. But I slowly began to realize that if Christianity is not true, then all the hope and joy in Christianity are possible outside the faith as well because they have simple naturalistic explanations that can be applied in other ways.
I also realized quite quickly that this was the only life I have so I had better figure out how to make it as enjoyable as possible! This means oftentimes treating others respectfully, lovingly, and graciously – as best I know how. In many ways Christianity had taught me how to be judgmental, introspective, and arrogant by giving me this false sense of spiritual, intellectual, or moral superiority over my fellow man. I am finding that none of this was actually true and leaving the faith has shocked me in many ways into discovering how I can better myself as a person by trusting people more, giving others the benefit of the doubt, and letting other humans just be the humans they are without trying to change them before I love them. This also means that seeking my own pleasure above others could actually spell my own demise or make my life miserable. Quite simply, being a kind person who thinks things through is healthy.
It is true that I am not always kind and I have my moments as every human does. But this is just a part of being the animals we are with the emotions, hormones, built-in defense systems, and reproductive drives that we possess. Just as our pets have mechanisms like claws, teeth, balance, a healthy sense of fear or danger, ability to cause harm, and an ability to repair themselves and avoid death (all of which would be useless in a pre-fall Biblical world without death) so we too have intellectual, physical, and emotional defense mechanisms which can cause us to act in what Christians often refer to as “sinful” ways. Sometimes these systems fail or are misinterpreted which can lead to unhealthy or erratic behavior, and it is in our best interest to invent tools to help each other avoid the harm that comes from these situations. [It concerns me when I see patterns within faith systems that encourage men to avoid science and instead substitute it with faith which can do no more than a placebo. Medically speaking, any system which only works if you believe just right is no better then a sugar pill.]
Do I have a moral foundation? Absolutely! I found my moral foundation in thinking through my decisions carefully to determine that which will reduce the most harm. This is extremely hard to do (especially when one has just taken for granted a list of “God says” items all their life) and I hope that I am getting better at it. Causing harm to others by being selfish will inevitably bring harm to myself – either through my ability to empathize and feel their pain which produces guilt or by people’s vindictive nature. Just as my cats have learned quite well how to get along by fighting with each other and learning not to cause too much pain for the other, so people can do the same thing.
Let me give you one example of a moral dilemma I find myself in. According to my Biblical and historical study hell is an invention of men, no more real then vampires, warlocks, witches, or its Greek equivalent Tartarus. Yet it causes emotional pain in this life to teach that hell exists. Therefore it is immoral to teach others that hell is real. So on the one hand, it is my moral obligation to deliver my friends and family from what I believe to be an immoral and manipulative belief in hell. But on the other hand, it causes pain for people to discover that what they believe is false. What should I do? Do I do nothing and let my friends and family be manipulated and suffer the doubts and torment that may come from a literal belief in hell and the potential of ending up there? Or do I potentially cause a massive amount of short-term pain by attempting to deliver people from a false faith? I still struggle with this on an almost daily basis, knowing that my younger family members are being taught by others in the church that my lack of faith is leading me to a non-existent eternal torment. What would you do in my situation?
This last year has been the most painful year of my life. I lost my heroes (C. S. Lewis and Josh McDowell for example). I feel I have lost my family. I feel that I have let down so many people. I lost my relationship with an imaginary god in my mind. And I lost the respect of friends and family, some of whom have rejected me completely. I have endured insults, accusations, prayers for my demise, and more. I lost my entire social circle. I had so encircled myself with Christians that I did not at first even have a secular group of friends to turn to for support. I was quite alone. Why? Because I could not betray my conscience and pretend to believe in something I knew was false.
But there is hope: the hope that the universe will consistently go on and that so many have gone before me without faith and I can too. At first this sounds so extremely lame compared to the hope Christianity promises. But just as a drug addict must learn that a lame life without the high of his drugs is actually better, so I have been learning that a “lame” life without Jesus is actually more fulfilling, less stressful, and more enjoyable. Yet with freedom comes responsibility, and I take my responsibility that comes from freedom without your God seriously.
I want to let everyone know that I still accept and love each and every one of you just as much as I did when I was a believer even though our friendships may have changed radically. I am not trying to trick you or lie to you in any way in any part of this email (I say this because having been a Christian myself I know the suspicion some of you will have that demonic forces are at work in what I am writing). This is the honest truth and I wish you all the best and hope that some day you will open your mind and your eyes to the possibility that I am right and be set free from the illusion that is your Christian faith. There is a clarity of mind and a peace that exist part from the faith that I hope some day many of you will experience yourself.
- Josh
Joshua
Well written, I could sense your hope within your words. I could also see how much of a challenge it has been. I have a hard time relating as I come from a completely secular background. Though I do believe in a Creator or G-d for lack of a better word, I just dont try to quantify it. I accept the naturalistic aspects of the world and try my best to work within that format. I think the biggest beef most Deconverts have is not that of a belief but of an adherence to a specific doctrine. Many people dont like mystery, so they have this need to portray themselves as “knowing” what its all about. I can accept mystery and still have a “faith” that there is more to this existence than what I can see or touch. I find that can make life like a Christmas morning, exciting, exhilirating and mysterious all together. If all I get is “socks” that day, I just wait patiently to open the next gift. ;)
Jose Miguez Bonino says “only an atheist can be a good Christian” in his book Room to be People. stop seeking perfection, stop waiting on something that may or may not happen, and get out and do something! live your life, do no harm to others, and make a community.
i repeatedly say “To be a follower of Christ, we must get beyond Christ.” meaning “these things I do, you can do, and greater than these” not just in #, but also in quality. the healing science has given us would be astonishing to the apostles. the creation story of evolution vs. the one in genesis gives us a much older, wiser, and complex God that isn’t anthropomorphized, but a force of nature. i also say that “There is no such thing as Secular. It’s all holy!” you’ve reached this realm! you have mystery, you are seeking things out and are critically engaged.
but this comes with a price… with great wisdom comes great sadness… Jesus said that this way of life would separate people from their normal communities but also said that family is not based on biology but on “whoever does the will of God.” i see you and many other agnostics and atheists doing this more solidily than their theistic counterparts.
check out A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren, A New Natural Theology by John Polkinghorne, the Phoenix Affirmations by Eric Elnes, and Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell if you’re still interested in Christianity. those will give you a different take than the Moody Bible Institute would. I consider myself a christian, but i wouldn’t go near that place for the life of me. it’s not that i view them as nonChristian or anything like that.. it’s just we’re so different in focus, we wouldn’t be able to connect on much.
you rawk dude! thanks for sharing this wonderful letter and blessings on your search dude!
Very good story. I was raised without religion and was very curious as to WHY a person has to believe in a god. I started asking questions on blogs and my own. I only seemed to aggravate religious people.
One person in particular told me it was my and my kids’ fault that my husband was killed by two hit and run vehicle accidents because we were atheist. I’m 52 now, when my husband died I was 20 years old and didn’t even know what atheist meant.
Most of the time I would ask a question and they thought I was “searching” for god. They told me to read the bible but NOT by myself, I might not understand it, they said. Go to bible study at a church, or have a pastor explain it to you. What the heck, I didn’t ask to be indoctrinated! :O
One sister of mine makes statements like, “at least we still have prayer, they can’t take that from us!!”
As far as I know, I’m the only atheist out of ten siblings.
I know what you mean about feeling, well…..free.
And just so you don’t feel alone, my family probably thinks I’m possessed by satan or am a lost soul…:)
I love your blog.
“I was raised without religion and was very curious as to WHY a person has to believe in a god. I started asking questions on blogs and my own. I only seemed to aggravate religious people.”
Oh how I wish I had not been raised religious. It is taking work to free myself from the programming that those ideas have given me. Its so hard to do when one is surrounded with people who think like that – but I am away from home and trying to make a new life with new friends who do not believe in any of that non-sense. Its a lot of fun!
Thanks so much for your encouragement – all of you. I’ll keep you all updated on my “progress” :)
I hope someday to be writing a letter like this to my own family. I found yours very moving. I particularly think you did a great job of addressing the immediate counter-points Christians bring up in regard to atheism: lack of moral foundation, no impetus to do right, freedom to do wrong, lack of hope, lack of joy, and lack of meaning. I’ll definitely use yours as a format if I ever get around to doing it.
I’m curious, how have your family reacted? Did you get any replies through email? Do they seem to be more accepting now that they have this honest and detailed explanation of your life as an atheist?
“I’m curious, how have your family reacted? Did you get any replies through email? Do they seem to be more accepting now that they have this honest and detailed explanation of your life as an atheist?”
Honestly, I’m not sure my family even reads my stuff and I have not decided whether I want to make an active effort to share this letter with everyone yet. I’m still trying to decide. I’m hoping right now that for those who do read my blog this will stand out :)
Very courageous, Josh. I’ve come “out” to family and friends but not in a written letter like yours. Kudos.
I’m also sorting through the massive imprint that my evangelical upbringing left on my psyche. It can be so, so subtle – in my case, I have a subconscious tendency to “authoritize” other people and downplay or outright disregard my own instincts or views. This stems pretty directly from the theology of God is great and right, and we are worms with utterly depraved souls. (Combined with the earthly authority stuff and women submitting to men. Fun stuff.) In short, I was taught long ago not to trust myself, my “sin nature”, which has resulted in a LOT of heartache and pain precisely because in numerous instances, I ignored my gut instincts…which had been right all along.
“I’m also sorting through the massive imprint that my evangelical upbringing left on my psyche. It can be so, so subtle – in my case, I have a subconscious tendency to “authoritize” other people and downplay or outright disregard my own instincts or views.”
I can completely relate! I have tendency to disregard my gut instinct or my own desires (sounds familiar). Basically by being taught all those years to question my own thinking and my own motives and to submit to someone else I still struggle with just being myself and honest about what I think. There is a form of control found within the churches I knew that is hard to shack mentally – even long after the fact :)
Josh,
This is Joe, they guy who took the OTF and came out a Christian. I have a response for you back at my blog, even if it is not persuasive please feel free to dialogue with me. I want to understand you and I like questioning my own belief system, still.
In your post you wrote,
“I honestly wish and hope it is, but I have never heard of a person who reaches my point of knowledgeable rejection of the faith who turns back. I know how the trick is performed.”
Would you consider me a person who came back? Could I be the first person you heard of? I guess you have to believe at least two things in order to know:
1. I am telling the truth?
2. I made an honest evaluation.
Love to hear from you,
Joe
“Would you consider me a person who came back?”
Well, I don’t know you well enough to give an answer to that :) I’m not sure you’ve questioned it to the extent that I have (just from reading some of your comments), but I’ll withhold any conclusions at this time.
“1. I am telling the truth?
2. I made an honest evaluation.”
Well, I don’t doubt you are telling the truth as best you can discern :)
So Joe, I was just thinking. There is a way you can demonstrate to me that you reached my point of knowledgeable rejection of the faith.
If you read above, you will see that I wrote:
“I honestly wish and hope it is, but I have never heard of a person who reaches my point of knowledgeable rejection of the faith who turns back. I know how the trick is performed.”
If you can demonstrate to me that you comprehensively understand “how the trick is performed” from a secular viewpoint, then I will believe you.
In other words, demonstrate conclusively that you have applied the OTF as extensively as I have and you will have won me over.
Hey, Josh, sorry for the delayed response.
“If you can demonstrate to me that you comprehensively understand “how the trick is performed” from a secular viewpoint, then I will believe you.”
I reread your post so that I could try to better understand what you mean by the “trick”. I hope I understand you correctly, but if not, let know. I think you mean that the “trick” is that Christians have an explanation for everything based on a supernatural kind of interpretation, when the most logical and obvious answer is a natural explanation.
For example, the Christian church has had a 2000 year history of confusion and internal conflict. This possess a dilema for the Christian because, as you point out, in John 17 Jesus prays for unity among Christians and in John 14-16 Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach Christians the truth once Jesus is gone. Thus, the Holy Spirit has failed and Jesus’ prayer was not answered. The Christian “explains this away” by saying, “there are forces working against God and the Christian: The Flesh, The Devil, and the World.” This is something I too struggled with and brought up as a problem to my wife and friends.
Another example is creation. The believer sees a kind of “magic” at work behind the world that he sees and experiences, whereas, the most obvious and natural explanation is that everything came about by natural forces and continues as such.
I have to say, that I like naturalism and it is easy for me to interpret the world around me from a naturalistic point of view. I remember hiking through Evolution Valley in the Sierras 10 years ago. Hiking amongst the cathedral peaks and lush valley floor of the Sierras was absolutely breath taking. We camped in Evolution Valley and at dusk, while looking up the valley to the peaks of Darwin, Spencer, Huxley, I was struck by how this “glorious” place could be viewed as even more glorious from a naturalistic point than a creationist point of view. In other words, the Christian sees God creating it just the way it is (design), where as the Naturalist sees it as a random process of millions of years of development. Both concepts display “glory” to me, but at the time I was most impressed with the naturalistic explanation.
Peace,
Joe
Okay Joe. That works so far. But let me ask you this.
Do you believe in hauntings and ghosts?
If you believe in Christianity because it is a plausible explanation in your mind (even though you admit there are naturalistic explanations), what about all the other paranormal / supernatural beliefs in the world for which there are naturalistic explanations?
What about them?
Why Christianity?
If you accept Christianity, why not accept – say – a belief in alien UFO’s?
When will this stop? When do you put your foot down and say “no, I will accept the naturalistic explanation here but not here”.
For example, research the story of Daniel Ekechukwa. If you accept the resurrection of Jesus, why not accept the resurrection of Daniel Ekechukwa?
What criteria do you use to determine when a naturalistic explanation should be preferred over a supernatural one?
If you say “when it disagrees with my theology”, then you completely and utterly beg the question. That would be like a ufologist saying that he will accept naturalistic explanations when the data disagrees with his theories on aliens.
Joe, let me just tell you the truth. You can deny it, you can invent any naturalistic explanations you want, but this is the truth. If you reject this message, it proves that you are deluded and blinding yourself from the truth because you do not want to submit to the truth and instead are just enjoying the delusion of your religion.
The universe is governed by a collection of alien races. These races control worlds, ours included.
As experiments and mind control of their creatures, these aliens invent and toy with religious ideas upon their creatures. They make ‘supernatural’ appearances (angels, ghosts, etc.) to scare the creatures into religious ways of thinking that help them organize and keep them from advancing too quickly.
Islam, Christianity, Mormonism… all angelic appearances and prophecies, etc. are all mind control techniques by these aliens. Even Jesus was a product of one of their plans to control the human population.
Because these aliens are prone to error, this explains all the inconsistencies between religions and why all the “revelations” that these aliens give are inconsistent with each other.
Recently, these aliens revealed to me that they are ready for the human race to move forward and to recognize their plan. They want to develop a relationship with the human population because we are ready to move forward in the universe as a species. I am the last person they will reveal anything to via their supernatural revelation and they have explicitly selected me to reveal this to the human race. All future revelations are inventions of men, but this revelation is the true revelation.
You can deny the above theory Joe, but you are just ignoring the facts. The recent UFO sightings around the world and the various supernatural revelations (of every kind) in the last several thousand years confirm that these revelations are the truth.
Oh, one other thing, if you hear the news these aliens are revealing through me and reject it you will be annihalated when they finally reveal themselves in full to the human race in this next generation. Only those who are fit believe this message and if you do not believe you are not fit and therefore will be destroyed.
That includes you Joe. Believe or be destroyed.
This is the first Revelation through Joshua Jung of the alien unveiling. Signed April 1, 2009.
- Joshua Jung
Joshua,
I suppose aliens could be fooling us with Christianity. They could be behind Christianity with some ulterior motive. You could even be their prophet! But, I don’t honestly see the comparison between Christianity and Ufology. Differences:
1. Christianity is based on an historical event or events.
2. Christianity is attested by corroborating eyewitness, which then developed in to a world wide movement. Also, the very early church saw it as rooted in historical events and sought to record them as such because of it’s historical basis.
3. Christianity has a message that satisfies the existential and intellectual needs of humans. It has a purpose to benefit mankind. What do UFO’s have to offer? Nothing.
4. Humans have a universal innate need to connect with a “divine” being greater than themselves. Everyone agrees with this, even the Dawkins. Ufology seems to be reserved for the very strange among us.
5. Christianity is a very honest and forthright presentation of God. That is, it is revelation to man and not concealed. UFO’s are never seen by but one or two persons who actually make the siting into something greater than what it actually is, like a shooting star or something. If aliens were behind religion and mascarading behind it all, keeping it hidden, then I see this explanation as weird and unreasonable.
How do I determine what is supernatural and what is natural? I normally take all things as naturally explained. That is, my first inclination is to look for the magicians trick. This is why I am not a charismatic. I even think that some so called demon possession is the result of schitzophrenia, etc. However, I do not feel I have the right to be sure about ever case. I think that is my conclusion. Now, when I look at the world, as I described in my previous reply, I do think the world is billions of years old. I accept the idea that mountains and valleys developed over millions of years to be what they are now. However, I don’t know exactly how it all happened and I hold out the belief that God guided it to be what it is, using “natural” means. I am a natural critic and cynic, but I don’t conclude that Christianity is untrue on this basis. I hold out for the possibility that I could be deluded by demonic influence or my own propensity to sin. I certainly see, from experience, how I have deluded myself in to thinking something was true when I later found it to not be true. You can probably attest to this from your own experience.
Joe
What about the “other gods” throughout history, before christianity? I’m an atheist so I don’t know much about gods, but I was curious.
Horus, Mithras, Thor etc?
I like Thor! In fact, when I was a young carpenter a friend of mine tagged me, “Son of Thor” because I used the 2lb. hammer.
Thor, Mithras, Horus, The Buddah, etc. do have a correspondence with Christianity. But, people are making it sound as if their is a one for one borrowing. That is, Christianity is entirely copied from these figures in history. The correspondence is there, but I see it as a prefiguring or forshaddowing of Jesus. These figures are a reflection of what humans want and need: reconciliation with God, life after death, etc. The Christian says that Jesus, however, is the real thing and that these other god concepts are lesser forms of the reality. We still have corresponding stories in history following Jesus. The very mideval idea of the enslaved damsel in distress who is rescued by the night is shinning armor, is another corresponding idea.
Joshua and others,
By the way, when I make the claim that Christianity is unique, as an apologetic for Christianity, I mean most specifically that Jesus was claimed to have been bodily resurrected. There is no other correspondance for this in the ancient world. The others, such as Osiris, Horus, etc… never resurrected from the dead and their personage is not rooted in history. If you have not read NT Wright, The Resurrection of the Son of God, you owe it to yourself in doing a fair evalution of history.
Peace,
Joe
“By the way, when I make the claim that Christianity is unique, as an apologetic for Christianity, I mean most specifically that Jesus was claimed to have been bodily resurrected.”
C’mon Joe. You have got to be kidding. So fucking what? So what if its “unique”? And its not. Resurrection stories have been floating around the world for a long time. They still have lots of them in parts of India.
Hell. Will you believe anything that’s unique?
Seriously, scientology has some ‘unique’ doctrine. Are you going to believe it too?
You just want to believe Christianity because it makes you feel special and like your on a mission from God. That’s what I think. Its an ego trip for you. How do I know? Because I’ve been there.
Hey Joshua,
I do think it is unique for the reasons I stated. I also think it is unique as a religion in general. Christianity is Jesus dying as a propitiation for our sins. We don’t propitiate our sins, Jesus does. We do nothing but put our faith in him and trust his propitiatory work. Isn’t this an apologetic argument?
Also, how do you know me well enough to judge my motives: Egotistical? Mission from God? I came to faith because I saw myself as a beggar looking for bread and all I am doing is trying to show other beggars where to find bread, too. I am simply grateful to be a partaker of bread. It’s that simple. If being a Christian was an ego trip for you, Joshua, then I suggest you were in it for the wrong reasons. If you don’t see yourself as a lost beggar, then you will have no reason to accept the gospel. I am not putting you down or seeing you in any way as inferior. In fact, I see you as a very smart guy who is genuinely struggling, or were struggling, with the rationality of Christianity.
Peace,
Joe
“Isn’t this an apologetic argument? ”
Well I don’t think so at all.
“Also, how do you know me well enough to judge my motives: Egotistical? Mission from God?”
You mean you seriously don’t think occasionally think that God has some special mission for you to go up against men like Loftus?
Well Joe, lets just say there is nothing that looks more egotistical from OTF than a person inside because they claim to have a secret knowledge that those of us outside for some reason cannot – or are unwilling – to grasp. If you don’t understand this, then maybe you don’t understand the OTF?
Imagine yourself outside the faith. Then look inside.
“Christian was an ego trip for you, Joshua, then I suggest you were in it for the wrong reasons.”
Well, being a follower of Jesus apparently was an ego trip for the apostle Paul. Why do you then judge me?
I do see myself as special in God’s sight, but I am no different than you. No more special, no less special. But that’s just my opinion. Also, I think saying that Paul was on an ego trip is just your opionion. It is your “perspective”. It’s how you choose to see him. I think John Loftus is on a huge ego trip. But, I really don’t know him that well and it is just my perspective. It doesn’t have anything to do with the truth.
I’ll tell you something, I have a lot of bad opinions and criticisms about Christianity. But, they are just opinions. I am bothered by the exclusivity, the Trinity, the mysteries, the hypocrisy of the church, etc. But, that doesn’t mean that “The Faith” is wrong. It just means I have some hang ups.
I appreciate your honesty, Joshua.
As a recently deconverted Christian myself, I understand where you’re coming from. I haven’t “come out” in a public letter or announcement, but several of my good friends and family members know where I stand. I’ve decided that for now I’m not going to press the issue, yet at the same time I am completely honest with whoever asks me questions. So far, I’ve gotten mixed reactions from people.
I see you enjoy smoking a pipe, and I can’t help but comment. I started smoking pipes less than a year ago. I got mine at Iwan Ries on Wabash. They’ve got a pretty good selection of tobacco.
Excellent Josh. I’m actually going to use your letter as a springboard/template to construct one of my own. You really covered everything well.
Josh,
I very much relate to this story, though my experience was about eight years ago now. I still remember the trauma of losing a worldview that was mine since childhood, only to learn that it was fundamentally wrong. I too remember shutting off the secular world, to spend more time devoted to my imaginary god and Christian people. I too was ready to go to the ministry, because if this god was real, and our eternity would deal with “Him”, then there was no other point in life (i.e. a blink in incomprehensible eternity) than to worship and work for that god.
Of course, I would think anyone who truly believed in their god would take it that seriously, but as you know, believers don’t take it so thoughtfully. Anyway, I think, like you, I might have to write my story for those believers that are so close to me, yet don’t understand or fear me. All the best.
-Jordan