Le Chauffeur
Chicago is known for its storms and this last Tuesday was no exception. Dinesh and Loftus were scheduled for a debate that evening and beforehand Brandt and I were going to meet up with some other fellow skeptics and discuss the meaning of life, etc.
Due to some extenuating circumstances and the weather, I ended up calling David – the debate coordinator – to find out what the plan was given the weather and some contradictory information I had received from blogs. During the call, he mentioned that Dinesh’s flight was due to arrive in Chicago at noon and he was to catch a connecting flight to fly to Champaign. But there was this issue of the heavy snow, low visibility, and ice…
So I offered to drive Dinesh from Chicago to Champaign if needed.
Well, long story short Brandt and I drove to O’Hare and picked up Dinesh D’Souza in Terminal 3 and drove him to Champaign.
Impressions
As you can imagine, I was just as excited about the opportunity to drive Dinesh D’Souza as I would have been to drive someone like Christopher Hitchens. Realistically they are almost equally popular. Dinesh is known for his political views, having dated Ann Coulter, and countless books – including several New York Times bestsellers. Furthermore, he is known for his choice to be a Catholic and for being a formidable debater on the subject of athiesm / theism.
And all I wanted to do was see if I could pick his brain.
I had no intention of starting a debate in the car, but just a small hope that we would at least be able to discuss his views and mine. Thankfully this did occur.
Now, I don’t mean to be judgmental in what follows, but my first impression was that Dinesh was more socially capable than intellectually capable. Our conversation started light and it was obvious that Dinesh thought Brandt and I were sympathetic with his views from many comments he made. He would talk about the “new atheists” as if they were our mutual enemy and I would have felt bad just going “well, hey, we are both atheists” so I decided to take an extremely passive approach to our conversation in which, by asking questions, I slowly revealed my views. It took Dinesh a good hour or more to catch on, but I don’t blame him. He was under the impression the event coordinator (a Catholic) and us were good friends and that was why we were driving him. Given that, it makes sense that he would assume we were “on his side”.
I started my questions / statements out light. The first little opportunity I had was when Dinesh made a comment about how colleges and universities tend to be more secular than their surrounding neighborhoods / cities. I casually mentioned that it made sense, given the fact that all the students are generally being exposed to more information than they have ever had access to and so it is quite believable that many of them would choose views considered more liberal by those “back home”. I remember Dinesh didn’t really say anything and I got the impression he had not thought of it quite that way before.
This obviously lead to deeper conversations about the upcoming debate, etc. Somehow (I can’t remember exactly how) the conversation did get to questions about God, etc. and I began mentioning questions I had. It didn’t take long for Dinesh to catch on to the fact that my questions were coming from a very fundamentalist perspective and I remember him mentioning that he thought the fundamentalist and atheist view of the Bible were basically the same. Apparently he thought both were wrong and I can’t blame him given how little knowledge he had about the Bible. This is where the conversation got interesting.
My biggest question was why – if the truths of Christianity are timeless – do we keep having to update old apologetic questions with newer, shinier arguments. I mentioned the cosmological to kalam cosmological progression and asked the pointed question “how do we know that we are not just inventing arguments?”
Dinesh’s response was somewhat unique to me. He seems to have a view that discovery of truth about God is similar to discovery of truth about science. Over time, our understanding grows and he actually said that he thought we should view the Bible the same way we view the Constitution. I tried to prod him for more information, since I mentioned that the Constitution isn’t based on any historical truth claims like the Bible is and he recognized that his analogy broke down at that point. My memory is a little fuzzy as to where the conversation went at this point, but needless to say his comparison of the Bible to the consitution sheds a lot of light on the fact that he has no problem debating without using any Scripture.
Then things got weirder. In answering my question about the invention process of apologetics, he also mentioned that the reason we need apologetics is because the “Bible doesn’t contain any arguments”. I was floored by this statement, and so I flat out told him he was wrong. He asked me to tell him how he was wrong. So I did. I began by pointing out all the arguments in Scripture given – especially from passages by Paul. I mentioned 1 Corinthians 15. I had to explain to him all the arguments in the passage that Paul gave for the resurrection of Jesus. He tried to dismiss it by saying those were “internal arguments”. As if that makes any solid difference. I think he was trying to say apologetics is needed because the Bible is for internal use, and apologetics is for external use. I, obviously, tried to show him that this isn’t the case. The Bible contains arguments for external use as well, and at this point I realized the conversation wouldn’t go to far because he kept having to ask me what passages of Scripture said and I realized I had a strong upper hand at this point.
First lesson learned: if you want to debate Dinesh focus on the thing he always wants to ignore in his debates: Scripture. He doesn’t know squat about it. He even mentioned he wouldn’t debate Bart Ehrman because he knew Bart was a professional in that area – so he wouldn’t even bother debating him. He had no clue about the great number of canon’s in the first century, etc. and dismissed any points I made about them.
At this point our conversation kept getting off track. I kept trying to pinpoint a particular thing, point out how his endless analogies break down, etc. and Dinesh kept acting like he didn’t want to get into exact details about things. I pointed out how strongly different science is from discovering spiritual truth. That got us off into a tangent about the afterlife, NDEs, aliens, etc. I have to confess that I grew to respect Dinesh’s epistemology. At least he was consistent. At one point he said that neither atheists nor theists know where we go after we die. That was interesting. He also mentioned we don’t know whether aliens exist or not.
Endless Ridiculous Analogies
With all due respect, Dinesh is good at making horrible analogies that are hard to spot.
Somehow our conversation got into the subject of comparing belief in God to belief in aliens. Dinesh mentioned in the car the exact same analogy he used during the debate with Loftus. Imagine you enter a town and start meeting all these people who talk about meeting a guy named Tom. Yet you never meet Tom. After a while of never meeting Tom you conclude all these people are deluded because you can’t find Tom. Does this mean Tom doesn’t exist?
In the debate, Dinesh added the phrase “have a little more respect for human opinion!” (or something to that effect) Since so many people claim to have “met” God, we can trust they are probably reflecting a genuine human experience.
This analogy is downright awful. The way to counter is so simple I can’t believe Loftus didn’t pick up on it. Extend the analogy to more closely resemble the actual truth:
Imagine you enter a village of people who all claim to have met Tom. But you never see Tom. Then you begin to talk to everyone about this fellow Tom. Some people say Tom is super nice and loves everyone and wouldn’t harm a fly. Other people say Tom is super mean and beats up everyone who doesn’t agree with him perfectly. Some people say Tom has 3 heads, and other people say he has only one. Some people say Tom hates gay people and other people say Tom loves them. Some people say everything Tom says is super clear and if you don’t get what Tom is saying you are deluded. Other people say Tom sometimes speaks in riddles and its okay to not understand him. One group in the village says that Tom wants them to kill everyone who doesn’t agree with what they say Tom said. Another group says Tom wants everyone in the village to be at peace and to avoid bloodshed. Some people even tortured others because they said Tom told them to. Other people started a hospital to treat the torture victims because Tom told them to! But no matter how hard you try, you can’t meet Tom and get his direct opinion – all you ever get is second hand contradictory information.
As you can see, Dinesh’s analogy is downright awful. Just awful. The latter is closer to the truth.
Dinesh and My Story
At this point in the conversation I began to tell Dinesh about my story. I began to mention how my fear about not being saved nearly lead me to be suicidal. Honestly, he acted like he had never considered this type of position before. I explained to him how I felt like I shouldn’t keep living because if I could believe now and not believe later and go to hell, why should I bother at all? He honestly sympathized with my spiritual predicament. Then he tried to pass it off at first as being too “fundamentalist” but I didn’t let him get away with it.
I explained how at an early age I read the Bible regularly and began to seek hearing God’s voice. I mean, they heard it in the Bible – why couldn’t I? That lead to actually having voices in my head which I thought were spiritual. This lead to deep depression, confusion, and anxiety.
Then I explained to Dinesh how I discovered the voices were not real – by using science. I also explained how this made the voices go away. So I solved the riddle of the voices in my head – brought on by devotion to Christian teaching – by applying reason and science and then applied the lesson I learned to entirety of what Christianity hinges on:
“How do I know that the people who talk about God speaking to them in the Bible were not suffering from the same thing I suffered – but they just never discovered the voices were not real?”
At this point I noticed a distinct change in Dinesh’s dimeanor. It was obvious to me that I had hit a chord with him he perhaps had never dealt with before and I backed off quite a bit. If I had pressed him on these exact points in a real debate, I think I would have won with”half my brain tied behind my back”.
I backed off. A lot. I then gave Dinesh some tips on debating Loftus to distill some good will and mentioned that I would feel bad if we kept “discussing” these things because it might hurt Dinesh’s throat before the big debate and he probably wanted to prepare.
Rather interestingly, Dinesh mentioned he does a lot better in debates if he doesn’t prepare for them. He said it is much easier for him to go with the flow.
Obviously we discussed a lot more (like, for example, “impossible questions” – e.g. “when did time begin?”) but I think this is already getting pretty long.
Conclusion
Needless to say, I was very disappointed with the debate. Dinesh used all the same stuff he used in the car with me – for which I pointed out flaw after flaw, and I felt a lot like he was a parrot on stage. He was doing exactly what it took to win the debate. And he did.
But I agree with Brandt… I enjoyed our in-car conversation a lot more.
Hmmm, I’ve got Dinesh’s number… I wonder if I should challenge him to a debate :)
- Josh